Proof of God’s Existence

 Have you ever just walked outside felt the breath of the sun, or just looked outside and were serenaded by the melody of the rain? Have you looked in amazement at the beauty of a flower, or witness the growth of child from birth? Well I have and you know what? I refuse to believe in evolution. Now let me say, the purpose of this post is not to debate evolution versus creation using all the studies and scientific hooplah. Rather just from what I have seen and been exposed to on my short time here on Earth, the majesty of a Great Designer astonishes me.

Recently, I have seen documentaries and videos on big cats and flowers. To see how they live and operate, gaze into their instincts, and understand what they are and perform accordingly. It amazes me that people can really believe that the intricacies of their survival is proof of a big bang billions of years prior. To see the migration of the monarchs, the pollination of flowers by the hands of hummingbirds, bees, and bats, or the hunting mechanisms of a cheetah, lion, or leopard, is nothing short of beauty to behold. To see the metamorphis of a caterpillar into a butterfly, the transformation of the green summer leaves to reads, oranges, yellows, and browns as a sign of the season change, or the loveliness of icicles covering winter trees after a storm, I can’t help but fall in love all over again with the God that created them.

I see a lot of pictures on Facebook and from time to time I look into travel magazines and see the variety of beauty in other parts of the world, places I can help but dream to visit one day. For example go to El Rosario, Mexico to see the butterfly sanctuary, the Netherlands to visit the tulip fields, Mindanao, Philippines to behold the vivid colors of a rainbow eucalyptus tree, or to Montana to pick up a colored stone from Pebbles Stone Lake.

Furthermore, over the last year, I have had the opportunity to fly, and let me say it is so breathtaking to be side-by-side the majestic white clouds or fly amongst the brilliant stars of the night sky. Likewise, I am a lover of fresh fruit, and I am always so anxious to eat and to taste new fruits and embrace its sweet taste and unique texture, and be mesmerized by the deep and rich colors. Even still, just considering the abilities of the human brain, there is no way that it could have evolved from some blessed ape or that I just came into existence by chance.

When I consider all this, it’s proof of God’s existence, not His absence. Over and over in Psalms, the write speaks of how creation displays the glory of God and Paul claims that anyone who looks at nature has no excuse for not believing in God, and I couldn’t agree more. I’m thoroughly convinced that believing in evolution requires more faith than creation. I mean seriously, there is far too much detail in the existence of each and every life form or millions of species of plants, flowers, insect, fish, animals, even the plethora of variety of people, that is all could come from one random cell billions of years ago.

All in all, if you ever doubt God’s existence, or you wonder if her cares about you, I challenge you to walk outside and take hold the nature, the birds singing, the water rushing into the stream, the feel of sand or dirt beneath your feet, the coolness of the wind that you can’t see, or sit beneath the stars. God over and over has shown me His love for me through His creation; let Him love you too.

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20 comments

  1. The comment I gave there:

    Why do we grow wisdom teeth which get impacted, cause us agonizing pain and often cause infections which easily spread to the brain? Why do more pregnancies end in miscarriage naturally than are aborted by people? I think it’s one in 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage, usually very early. Why did, before modern medicine, a huge portion of children not survive to adulthood? Why are many of the plants god supposedly put here to eat poisonous? The same goes for insects and animals. Why do germs that kill babies look just as complex and marvelous and “designed” as the pretty flowers you describe? Is smallpox beautiful? Have you ever thanked god for it? Why does the ground grow food in some countries and not in others? Geological processes explain this, but if god set it all up as-is then he apparently wants some people to have too much food and wealth and others to starve to death.

    Yes, nature is beautiful, but you either haven’t really looked at it or you are selectively editing it to suit your worldview.

    ::awaits censorship::

    1. Hi! Thank you for your comment ☺. What you asked is very real, but let me first say this, when God created the world, He created perfection, with no desire of the things that you mentioned. Yet, by way of free will, man introduced sin into a perfect system and the world was never the same. Never did I deny all the bad and unpleasant things in the world, even apart from what you listed, and at times those things trouble me. But I’ve learned that God is sovereign and has a purpose and many times we don’t understand so I won’t even try to say why specifically, because there can be many reasons. Furthermore, all these things that happen can be aided by those those that choose not to help, in talking about health and food. There are things that break my heart on a daily basis, at times similar to what you mentioned and more, so again I’m not denying their existence, but the article was proof of a God that offers hope even amongst all the tragedies. He is not some wretched ill-tempered being, but I can say with certainty that if people would stop pushing the God of the Bible away and follow His Word, many of your concerns would be void.

      1. The idea that we are responsible for germs, earthquakes, appendicitis etc is absurd. As is the idea that these things didn’t exist a few thousand years ago. But even if I granted all of that the idea that a god was all-knowing and perfect and created us knowing we would “fall” and sat back and watched it happen is even more absurd. The idea of a god who causes and oversees every evil but has perfect white gloves and perfectly clean hands is absolutely ridiculous to me. Imagine if I had the power to stop someone from murdering someone you love effortlessly and I sat there and watched it happen. Would you call me moral?

      2. God does not cause the bad things to happen, but because He is Sovereign He allows it. However, on the immoral level, because we have free will and won’t force us to do anything, we ourselves are to blame for these things that happen. with free will we have the choice to determine what values and beliefs to follow from whichever system we choose to take it from. And because morality on a human perspective varies, we run into many of the issues we have now in the society, like murder. Because we push the God of the Bible away, people are left to their own reprobate minds, freedom with no restraint, and God will never force Himself on anyone so we have to bear the burden of our sin. As far as natural disasters no, we can’t control that, and yes God does, but through those tragedies so many have come to a new hope and understanding of how powerless human really are, in so many different ways. so to answer your question i won’t make that call, i have an opinion, but i just don’t see why you wouldn’t. As a Christ follower, i have come to understand that God has a purpose for everything allows and he is not up there just rolling dice on what happens day-to-day, He is not flippant, impetuous and cruel. I don’t understand why He allows certain things to happen, and i will go crazy trying to find all the answers, but all I can say is that I know Him for myself. You should get to know him too.

      3. I have a secular version of the same philosophy which cuts god out of the equation and simply says that every cloud has a silver lining and good and evil are mutually necessary/intwined concepts. Yin and yang, etc. But it makes sense because I don’t pretend the universe is in any sense perfect. I think it just is what it is. But if I thought an infallible being set it in motion and watched over it, given all it’s imperfections that notion seems self-evidently false. People want to have their cake and eat it too, they want god to be responsible for the universe but without taking any responsibility for it. They want to feel like god is helping them when things go well and not that he’s hurting them when things go wrong, but the two go hand in hand. I want to know what is true, I don’t want to believe this or that.

      4. Well you actually just restated what I have said, but truth is truth whether you believe it or not, because I can tell you a truth, but if you don’t believe, although it’s true, then you continue to go in circles, which is why faith is so important. The search for it, I have found only one way. and to be honest it answers every question you have. I can’t, but the God of the Bible can. With all the philosophies and beliefs that are in the world today, the truth is blurred on many levels. And like i said prior, there are some truths that i believe and others i have to have faith to believe because explanation goes beyond human reasoning.

        As far as the Yin and Yang, you can’t have one without the other, I believe that. But the question becomes, where does the standard of “good” and “evil” come from, because from person to person, group to group, it varies. There has to be something higher.

      5. As nietzsche put it, a brief stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith proves nothing. Believing something, however fervently, does not make it the least bit more true. And that life seems simpler and seems to make more sense through the lens of a particular worldview does not make that worldview true. In fact reality is so complicated even small aspects of it defy comprehension of the most brilliant and educated minds for decades. If you think you have most of the answers you probably are asking overly simplified questions.

        I think the idea of an all-powerful god lets us make up our own answers, but not necessarily the correct ones. We imagine why would god do x or allow x to happen, then come up with a satisfying or comforting answer and just believe it, as if something making us feel better made it true. I want to know the truth whether it’s pleasant or unpleasant (it’s generally a bit of both). I would rather try to understand the complicated world of politics, sociology and human psychology than subscribe to a single, simple conspiracy theory about an all-powerful secret society or shadow government that “explains” (ie gives me license to invent and then believe explanations) for everything. In science the ability of something to explain something is irrelevant until it can be tested for accuracy. Something can make perfect sense, be a beautiful idea, explain something perfectly and still be total BS.

        As for the basis of morality it isn’t something higher than us, it is something inside of us – the human condition. If cutting off someone’s fingers didn’t cause pain or psychological harm and they grew back five minutes later we would not consider it evil, psychotic behavior. We generally agree about right and wrong because the intrinsic consequences of something like stabbing someone are universally the same. They are universally the same because we’re all members of the same species with the same DNA, anatomy and basic psychology. This is what is responsible for the transcendental qualities of morality. Similarly people assumed that a pervasive god must exist to arrange the planets of the solar system, but it turns out a pervasive blind force like gravity works just fine. Morality transcends individuals and cultures because our genes transcend individuals and cultures, and the traits like nerve endings, pain centers of the brain, sympathy, empathy and social instincts that go along with them.

      6. I would have to disagree with Nietzsche. We have faith every day, we have faith in chair, in love, in friendship etc. which proves many things. And i am not saying belief anything alone makes it true, but rather having a belief and seeing the proof on daily basis is a part of the belief. And trust me, the answers to life’s questions i do know, why does it have to be overcomplicated? a sign of genius is making the complicated simple and that what the God of the Bible does. and of course like i said, there are some things that are hard to grasp or understand, but that’s because i have a finite mind.

        He does allow us to, it’s called free will, because if he programmed us to do only His way, we would be autobots, not cool. and no one said the answer was comfortable, there are plenty things that i dont like, but the more i learn the more i have a peace about things, but still do my part to contribute to society. But even more, what is wrong with having answers? you say you are looking for truth. what’s wrong with having answers to life’s most critical questions? why be left unsure or uncertain if i don’t have to? the God of the Bible is the only frame of reference or worldview that can answer all of your and my questions. do i like all the answers no, but i won’t argue with what His words. But are you saying that it’s BS because it makes something makes sense? That’s an unfair statement. why not have faith or believe in something that genuine makes sense, and if it truly makes sense and consistent, and it simplifies the complicates, why could it not be true?

        As far as morality, if there is a moral law the brings us together in one way or another, there has to be a moral lawgiver, or else our moral feelings are worthless and of no value. the standard has to come from somewhere.

      7. “I would have to disagree with Nietzsche. We have faith every day, we have faith in chair, in love, in friendship etc. which proves many things.”

        None of those things are comparable to religious faith, ie belief without evidence. We believe other people love us because we see it in their actions, their voice, their facial expressions etc, we believe people are our friends because we experience their friendship. And we believe a chair is a chair because… it’s a char.

        “And i am not saying belief anything alone makes it true, but rather having a belief and seeing the proof on daily basis is a part of the belief.”

        In my experience the proof is always based on circular reasoning when it comes to the existence of a god.

        “And trust me, the answers to life’s questions i do know, why does it have to be overcomplicated? a sign of genius is making the complicated simple and that what the God of the Bible does.”

        “God made it” is a simple answer to the question of how the universe got here. So is “allah made it”. So is “it happened on it’s own”. They don’t really give us a sense of what happened though, and they’re un-testable and un-verifiable.

        “and of course like i said, there are some things that are hard to grasp or understand, but that’s because i have a finite mind.”

        I have no knowledge of the existence of any non-finite minds.

        “He does allow us to, it’s called free will, because if he programmed us to do only His way, we would be autobots, not cool.”

        There is much harm inherent in the way the world works, gravity, weather, tectonic plates, disease etc all do vast amounts of harm by their nature. Free will need not even enter into it. The idea of a god that is perfect and micro-manages the universe and human affairs seems absurd to me.

        “and no one said the answer was comfortable, there are plenty things that i dont like, but the more i learn the more i have a peace about things, but still do my part to contribute to society.”

        When you say things you don’t like what are you thinking of? Out of curiosity.

        “But even more, what is wrong with having answers? you say you are looking for truth. what’s wrong with having answers to life’s most critical questions? why be left unsure or uncertain if i don’t have to?”

        Answers are good only as far as they are accurate. I don’t want answers, I want the correct answers. Zeus was an answer to where lightning comes from. But it wasn’t verifiable so it was good that some people at the time said “maybe this isn’t true” and looked for evidence.

        “the God of the Bible is the only frame of reference or worldview that can answer all of your and my questions.”

        I don’t see how that could in any sense be true. I think that a theological framework offers rationalizations for things, and the idea that god is guiding your interpretation of scripture gives people license to believe their own ideas as absolutes, which can be used to justify anything (even to someone in the KKK who also thinks they’ve got all the answers btw). This is not real to me though. It’s like the “yes, no and wait” standard of god answering prayers where a prayer is considered answered literally no matter what happens. The power to explain the world is, I think illusory.

        “do i like all the answers no, but i won’t argue with what His words.”

        The bible is not, contrary to popular belief, the word of god. It is the words of a small fraction of the thousands of men who have claimed to be speaking for god that were codified into law in ancient palestine. If I claim to be speaking for god that does not make my words the word of god, those words are mine first, whatever else they may be. It’s important to keep that in mind.

        “But are you saying that it’s BS because it makes something makes sense? That’s an unfair statement. why not have faith or believe in something that genuine makes sense, and if it truly makes sense and consistent, and it simplifies the complicates, why could it not be true?”

        I don’t think the bible makes sense or is consistent, and I don’t know where you got that something is BS if it makes sense. Something can make sense and be true or false. This is why evidence and logic are important.

        “As far as morality, if there is a moral law the brings us together in one way or another, there has to be a moral lawgiver, or else our moral feelings are worthless and of no value. the standard has to come from somewhere.”

        I know what the basis of morality was, and historically ideas like kindness, fairness, the golden rule etc did not begin in jewish or christian culture and spread from there. They exist in those cultures but existed across all major cultures before that. And as I said there is something “higher” than us that is the basis of our morality, it transcends the human race. Sorry it’s not what you had in mind.

      8. You can see the proof of God everyday, part of which is the article i wrote that began this discussion, but still, love for example, not everyone believes in it, though they see the same things others do.

        it is true that there is a lot of circular reasoning which is often a detrimental fallacy, but it depends on who you ask, some people are better prepared to answer.

        And you are right, creation and evolution are all theories, no one here on earth was the earth began, but that doesn’t mean that what i believe is necessarily wrong, and like i said in the article, it takes more faith to believe “it just happened and evolved” than to believe in creation. and Allah and Jehovah are not the same.

        and yes, there are no non-finite minds here, but that’s just in the human form, on what we are able to see, perceive, imagine, and comprehend.

        Well for starters as far as the things i don’t like, being a Christ-follower that means my life is now surrendered to him, so i can’t speak like i want when people get on my nerves and i no longer have control. or the fact that a lot of good people will die and spend an eternity without God. or the fact that there are struggles in life that God allows that are used for different purposes and it gets hard to keep faith. i wish i could just wake up and be all i am supposed to be in Christ, but there has to be pruning and growing pains, no one likes that, i don’t anyway lol.

        As far as answer, like i said for the sake of the article, i don’t know for certain, but a God that created and designed this earth makes sense. and i’ve witnessed His truth in my life and in the world around, every single day. but as far as the accuracy, i heard it like this once, i’d rather live as if there is a God, only to die and find out that there isn’t, than to live as if there is no God, only to die and find out that there is.

        As far as the autobots thing lol, i am just speakin on human terms, not natural disasters and things of the nature, those are all under God’s authority (something else for example i don’t like, but i can’t do a thing about it, but i trust His sovereignty and purpose)

        The power to explain the world is illusory, which is why we alone can’t do it and people have for millennial been trying to answer the age old questions. but, with the God of the Bible, He lays it out. and He loves to communicate and get involved in our lives. And unfortunately the Bible has been used to justify so many horrible things, but that doesn’t mean those people were right, Scripture in cases as you mentioned and many others has been misinterpreted, taken out of context, and misused. that’s why it is important to know what the Bible actually says for yourself and learn/study it’s meaning.

        I get what you are saying. and the bible is made up of only 40 credible authors, not thousands. it claims to be the word of God, it’s historically accurate, it is unified and very unique and it’s words have proven themselves and its power in lives over millennia, including my own

        and i apologize for mistaking what you said, but yes it does make sense, and it hasn’t been proven wrong sense the beginning when all others have in one way or another. So to me, just my opinion, it makes sense and it is truth.

        no need to apologize, but i do agree, this moral law or higher power existed long before the Jews and Christians, i never said Jews or Christians were the first, My point is just that the God of the Bible connected all the dots from the beginning, to the Jews, to the Christians, and to the end

      9. “You can see the proof of God everyday, part of which is the article i wrote that began this discussion, but still, love for example, not everyone believes in it, though they see the same things others do.”

        I would think someone who doesn’t believe in love would not believe in it because of their life experiences, in other words having seen different things than other people.

        “it is true that there is a lot of circular reasoning which is often a detrimental fallacy, but it depends on who you ask, some people are better prepared to answer.”

        I’ve asked many, many people. I’ve talked to members of the clergy, biblical scholars and even professional evangelists, and I’ve never found any evidence or argument for the existence of a god or the divinity of christ that stood up to scrutiny.

        “And you are right, creation and evolution are all theories, no one here on earth was the earth began,”

        The word theory in the scientific sense means something that has been thoroughly tested, is falsifiable, is useful for making experimental predictions and accounts for all of the available data. It is not the same as a “theory” in the everyday sense as in a hunch or a guess. Gravity is a “theory” of science, it’s also a plain fact of reality. That life or the universe was created by a god does not rise to the level of a theory as defined in science since it can’t be tested empirically, and is useless for predicting future discoveries.

        “but that doesn’t mean that what i believe is necessarily wrong, and like i said in the article, it takes more faith to believe “it just happened and evolved” than to believe in creation. and Allah and Jehovah are not the same.”

        It takes faith to believe that life “just evolved somehow” but that isn’t what the actual science of evolution is, the actual science of evolution is an incredibly detailed account of the mechanisms involved, it’s an explanation of specifically how and why life evolved (and is still evolving) and a myriad of ways we can test that idea and observe it both in nature and in the fossil and genetic records.

        “and yes, there are no non-finite minds here, but that’s just in the human form, on what we are able to see, perceive, imagine, and comprehend.”

        As opposed to the things we can’t see, perceive, imagine or comprehend which you know about how exactly?

        “Well for starters as far as the things i don’t like, being a Christ-follower that means my life is now surrendered to him, so i can’t speak like i want when people get on my nerves and i no longer have control. or the fact that a lot of good people will die and spend an eternity without God. or the fact that there are struggles in life that God allows that are used for different purposes and it gets hard to keep faith. i wish i could just wake up and be all i am supposed to be in Christ, but there has to be pruning and growing pains, no one likes that, i don’t anyway lol.”

        From a secular perspective what you call christ (that voice that tells you to bite your tongue, take the high road etc) seems analogous to what I would call my subconscious mind, my conscience etc. Maybe you just call yours jesus. Or maybe I call jesus my subconscious, social instincts etc. But the fact that everyone seems to have some version of this and call it something in every culture makes me hesitant to assume it’s this god or that spirit or whatever in particular.

        “As far as answer, like i said for the sake of the article, i don’t know for certain, but a God that created and designed this earth makes sense.”

        And to me it doesn’t make sense (I can go into detail if you want, but that’s not why I bring it up). And to a muslim person it makes sense that there is no god but allah and mohammad is his prophet. Every worldview, philosophy, sect and cult makes sense to it’s adherents. The only way to see if these things really make sense or if we just feel like they do is to test them. We test ideas with logic, science, mathematics, debate, and so on to see if they really make sense. But in traditional christianity this is seen as sinful, as something to be resisted. You talk about this above, how when you find it hard to believe you push those thoughts back and try harder to believe despite the contradictions or problems. A skeptic focuses on the contradictions until they’re resolved, and if they can’t be rationally resolved he or she abandons the belief.

        I think that doubt is how we improve our worldview, and the culture of “questioning is bad” has been a tremendous corrupting influence on christianity (and other religions) regardless of whether their initial doctrines were true.

        “and i’ve witnessed His truth in my life and in the world around, every single day. but as far as the accuracy, i heard it like this once, i’d rather live as if there is a God, only to die and find out that there isn’t, than to live as if there is no God, only to die and find out that there is.”

        Out of curiosity what do you think living as if there is no god would entail?

        “As far as the autobots thing lol, i am just speakin on human terms, not natural disasters and things of the nature, those are all under God’s authority (something else for example i don’t like, but i can’t do a thing about it, but i trust His sovereignty and purpose)”

        I don’t do that. You can justify any worldview (including that of hitler or some other bad, crazy person) if you just ignore contradictions and problems. Many believers think doubting is a sin, but to me not doubting is an abdication of our moral responsibility to find the truth.

        “The power to explain the world is illusory, which is why we alone can’t do it and people have for millennial been trying to answer the age old questions.”

        As a science nerd I can tell you that we’ve answered and explained more questions in just the last few generations than people a hundred years ago had even conceived of. The main reason we don’t have all of the answers is that every new answer allows us to ask new questions.

        “but, with the God of the Bible, He lays it out.”

        What question has science not been able to answer that the bible answers?

        “and He loves to communicate and get involved in our lives. And unfortunately the Bible has been used to justify so many horrible things, but that doesn’t mean those people were right, Scripture in cases as you mentioned and many others has been misinterpreted, taken out of context, and misused. that’s why it is important to know what the Bible actually says for yourself and learn/study it’s meaning.”

        The bible has also been used in-context to justify terrible things. There are parts of the bible that explain how much you should pay for your slaves, and others that detail when you should and shouldn’t be punished for beating them to death. The bible is a collection of very old books, many of which contain very old and barbaric ways of looking at people.

        “I get what you are saying. and the bible is made up of only 40 credible authors, not thousands.”

        I was referring to the countless other texts, messiahs, prophets etc that were not included in that compilation. I was saying that the bible is just a small percentage of them.

        “it claims to be the word of God, it’s historically accurate,”

        It contains historically correct information like real peoples, places, wars etc, but so do most works of fiction. And the bible contains many stories which have been conclusively shown to not be historically accurate. The bible also contains many redundant stories which often disagree with each other, it is not even internally accurate, which means one account often cannot be accurate without invalidating another account.

        “it is unified and very unique and it’s words have proven themselves and its power in lives over millennia, including my own

        I doubt there is a religious text that hasn’t had a profound influence on believers’ lives.

        “and i apologize for mistaking what you said, but yes it does make sense, and it hasn’t been proven wrong sense the beginning when all others have in one way or another. So to me, just my opinion, it makes sense and it is truth.”

        I’m not sure what you’re referring to here. What hasn’t been proven wrong since the beginning?

        “no need to apologize, but i do agree, this moral law or higher power existed long before the Jews and Christians, i never said Jews or Christians were the first, My point is just that the God of the Bible connected all the dots from the beginning, to the Jews, to the Christians, and to the end”

        If you’re referring to prophecy that’s a whole other can of worms.

        I’m not trying to antagonize your beliefs and I’m sorry if the conversation has taken a turn that way. I just don’t agree.

      10. again no need to apologize for your beliefs, we are just having a conversation ☺, so at some point we are bound to disagree and that is okay ☺.

        But for the brunt of what has been said, i would ask if you have actually read the Bible. it answer questions that science can’t about the meaning of life, what happens to our soul when we die, our identity, the purpose of our lives.

        it is true that many text have influenced people in one way or another, but the Bible pierces the actual heart and soul, no other book has the power to do so.

        but still as intricate as the evolution process it, that makes it even more difficult. and theory i agree, but science has been tested from a Biblical perspective just as much as evolution and if you are interested i can show you.

        i am enjoying this dialogue, so don’t say sorry lol

      11. “again no need to apologize for your beliefs, we are just having a conversation ☺, so at some point we are bound to disagree and that is okay ☺.”

        I wasn’t apologizing for my beliefs, I just don’t go looking for religious blogs to rain on peoples’ parade, with the exception of blogs that are attacking minorities or misrepresenting science.

        “But for the brunt of what has been said, i would ask if you have actually read the Bible. it answer questions that science can’t about the meaning of life, what happens to our soul when we die, our identity, the purpose of our lives.”

        Science is the branch of philosophy that deals with physical things, by definition it doesn’t deal with questions of meaning or morality. But to act like this is a failure of science or that we can’t have answers to these questions because science can’t provide them is like saying nobody can hammer in a nail because a screwdriver can’t do it. That’s not it’s job. And I could talk to you for hours about the meaning of life, what happens to us after we die, our identity and our purpose without ever once mentioning the bible. The mono-theistic biblical christian worldview is just one of several major ways of looking at the world.

        “it is true that many text have influenced people in one way or another, but the Bible pierces the actual heart and soul, no other book has the power to do so.”

        And you know this because you’ve read every book? You’ve read the quiran as a muslim and the baghavad gita as a hindu and so on? I knew a guy many years ago who was very evangelical, quoted scripture verbatim, argued with me about evolution and laughed that his faith was unshakable. I lost touch with him and about 6 months later I call him up to see how he’s doing – he tells me he’s no longer christian. I am shocked and ask him what happened. He says that two main things shook his faith – one was the concept of hell, and the other was that he read the tao te ching (pronounced dow day jing, one of the founding texts of taoism – pronounced “dowism”) and he was so moved by the simple beauty of it and realized that the feeling he felt when he read the tao was exactly the same feeling he felt when he read scripture. A feeling he assumed was a special communion with god unique to his religion and text. He later realized it was an organic feeling that anyone can feel about anything beautiful or meaningful or profound. Which I as an atheist relate to, most atheists I know or have ever heard of I would consider deeply spiritual people. They just don’t wrap it in supernaturalism.

        “but still as intricate as the evolution process it, that makes it even more difficult.”

        How so?

        “and theory i agree, but science has been tested from a Biblical perspective just as much as evolution and if you are interested i can show you.”

        Sure, go for it.

        “i am enjoying this dialogue, so don’t say sorry lol”

        Glad you are enjoying it. Also I must insist, what did you think living a life as though there was no god would entail?

      12. Word. Well, even if you did go around parading, I’m glad you paraded on mine ☺.

        But as far as science yes science is science as you said lol. but my point was that just generally speaking there are answers in life that science can teach us just by us studying the world around us, as so many have. but life’s journey can’t end there. or else we are all hopeless. there are some thing, as i mentioned, that we can’t find the answers solely on our own merit.

        as far as the guy who turned to a form of Taoism, that is not unusual. there are many, including people i know, that have walked away. and it’s for the same reason you said, “he didn’t like…” that is usually the case. the teaching in Scripture are not easy to follow and something like Hell, even some “Christians” don’t believe in it’s literal and physical sense, so when you are challenged to change your very being, people don’t like that. and want the easy way out. As a Christ follower, it’s changes the heart and soul because it has nothing to do with who we are or what we have done, because there is nothing we can do. it’s total surrender to the God of the Bible, and many people aren’t willing to deny themselves to follow, and hence you get the guy that turned to Taoism. but taoism, though it has great principles like harmony, health, and peace, it is based on human works seeking to realign with and impersonal force. so the heart and soul effect, is also much related to a personal relationship with the God of the Bible.

        It makes it more difficult because of all the intricacies that had to happen via evolution to end up with the world to today, but either way, it all happened from nothing nowhere.

        there is something called “answers in Genesis” and CEO Ken Ham is a renown scientist pro-creation (there is a debate on youtube “Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham” that you may be interested in). there is a website too answersingenesis.org

        in the smallest nutshell, living as if there is no God is doing/feeling whatever you want to do, as if there is no one to answer to when you die.

      13. “Word. Well, even if you did go around parading, I’m glad you paraded on mine ☺.”

        Thank you, that is nice of you to say.

        “But as far as science yes science is science as you said lol. but my point was that just generally speaking there are answers in life that science can teach us just by us studying the world around us, as so many have. but life’s journey can’t end there. or else we are all hopeless. there are some thing, as i mentioned, that we can’t find the answers solely on our own merit.”

        Like what? There are some fundamental questions that still elude us, but in terms of life and meaning, morality etc, it seems to make sense to me.

        “as far as the guy who turned to a form of Taoism, that is not unusual. there are many, including people i know, that have walked away. and it’s for the same reason you said, “he didn’t like…” that is usually the case. the teaching in Scripture are not easy to follow and something like Hell, even some “Christians” don’t believe in it’s literal and physical sense, so when you are challenged to change your very being, people don’t like that. and want the easy way out.”

        Not wanting to accept that god would torture people forever is no different than not wanting to accept that hitler would poison jews, would refusal to accept that morality be “taking the easy way out” too? Or would it be simply being moral? Bear in mind killing millions of jews is actually literally infinitely less cruel and evil than torturing people for eternity.

        “As a Christ follower, it’s changes the heart and soul because it has nothing to do with who we are or what we have done, because there is nothing we can do. it’s total surrender to the God of the Bible, and many people aren’t willing to deny themselves to follow, and hence you get the guy that turned to Taoism.”

        In psychology this would be called a shift in the locus of control, or someone’s perception of what is in control of them and their lives. There are a lot of nasty potential side-effects of believing god is in control, like believing that the universe is just so people who died in a natural disaster had it coming to them. This is a short video which talks about this more elegantly than I can if you’re interested:

        This also manifests in christians going to fellow church members looking for a compassionate shoulder to cry on and being told they must not have prayed hard enough or they must have sinned because x bad thing happened to them. Whereas without such assumptions we are free to just feel compassion for each other. I’m not saying you think this way, but it’s very common among people who believe an all-knowing god is in control.

        “but taoism, though it has great principles like harmony, health, and peace, it is based on human works seeking to realign with and impersonal force. so the heart and soul effect, is also much related to a personal relationship with the God of the Bible.”

        I don’t think this personal relationship really exists, as evidenced by the vast spectrum of different sects that get different ideologies from their supposed relationship with the god of the bible. The KKK is made up of christians who feel a strong connection to what they call the god of the bible, but what I suspect is just various aspects of their subconscious mind. We are only consciously aware of a small fraction of what our brain does so sometimes impulses and ideas and thoughts seem to pop into our minds, apparently from nowhere. But it’s probably just the equivalent of our conscious mind shining it’s mental spotlight on something produced by the unconscious parts of our mind and, like a spotlight suddenly illuminating something, it seems to appear out of nowhere. But it was there the whole time, we just didn’t see it. And of course some ideas and impulses produced by our mind are not nice, like wanting to cheat on your spouse or violent thoughts or the urge to eat all the ice cream in the freezer in one sitting. So we say those thoughts and impulses come from us or the devil or demons or whatever. But I think it’s all us. The KKK reads a passage about jesus calling jews a brood of vipers and adders and interpret it as jesus denouncing jews as a race because the culture and peers of the KKK member think that way so it makes sense that jesus would think that way. People who aren’t racist read the same passage and say jesus clearly was denouncing specific people and not making a generalization because that’s what makes sense to them. So “god” is, if I’m correct, just a mirror we hold up to ourselves, a form of unintentional self-worship. God is always, in our minds, the ideal we have in our own culture. Whatever that culture is. When people owned slaves slavery was clearly a god-given right and this was what millions of people felt they got in feedback when they read the scriptures.

        “It makes it more difficult because of all the intricacies that had to happen via evolution to end up with the world to today,”

        That assumes that the world the way it is is the only way it could or should’ve ended up. It’s like saying “what are the odds that languages would change in just the right way that we’d be speaking english right now?” It implicitly assumes that english is the point of language, or the most awesome possible language, when we think that only because it’s our language and we’re incapable of imagining another, equally complex and interesting language. And we would think this whether we were speaking english or any other language. So too if we were reptiles we’d think reptiles were the peak of evolutionary development. This is just human narcissism and bias.

        “but either way, it all happened from nothing nowhere.”

        I don’t make that assumption, nor is that a part of any scientific theory I have ever heard of. The question of ultimate origins of existence is a tough one but the idea of a creator god doesn’t help us at all, because the question then becomes where did god come from and how did god create the universe/life? It’s like saying a micro-chip is too complex, it must have been designed by a super-computer. It just complicates the problem without even trying to solve it. But theists in my experience universally ignore this and other problems.

        “there is something called “answers in Genesis” and CEO Ken Ham is a renown scientist pro-creation (there is a debate on youtube “Bill Nye Debates Ken Ham” that you may be interested in). there is a website too answersingenesis.org”

        I am very familiar with him and his website. He is not renowned as a scientist and has not, to my knowledge, actually done any science whatsoever. His website contains articles written by mostly non-scientists or experts speaking in fields outside of their field of expertise, all presented as experts. The website is also notoriously dishonest and inaccurate when it comes to describing science. Many years ago for instance when I first was linked to the website by a creationist I read an article about whale evolution that contained this picture:

        Claiming that scientists were lying about transitional fossils and using drawings to misrepresent actual fossils. Here is the actual first skeleton ever found of this species (ambulocetus):

        I emailed this to the website, thinking they might just be in error and not trying to deceive people. I got no response and the picture stayed on their website for years. It was later replaced with a blurb about how there were “supposedly” more complete fossils but they hadn’t been properly peer reviewed (which is also a lie).

        I am a science nerd so I can read an article about evolution or physics etc and spot inaccuracies. And answers in genesis (along with every other creationist website I’ve ever gone to) is full of inaccuracies. If you want you can send me an article about evolution or the age of the universe and I can point some out to you.

        “in the smallest nutshell, living as if there is no God is doing/feeling whatever you want to do, as if there is no one to answer to when you die.”

        To quote one atheist, we would not respect someone very much who was only good because of the “great security camera in the sky”. A few weeks ago I worked on the weekend at a job I hate when I really, really didn’t want to, because if I didn’t the chinese immigrants who work there would lose a day’s pay. I wanted to go home and have a nice weekend, but I also wanted to help other people. You say that doing what you want is bad but ignore that we want to help and be nice and love others too. I mentioned it (working on the weekend) to someone on the bus the following monday and they said something like it’ll come back to you somehow and I just shrugged and said “probably not”. But I did it anyway. And did it again the next week. The largest charitable donation in human history was made by an atheist. The fourth largest charity in the world was founded by an atheist. The military’s poster child for recruitement was an atheist (pat tillman) who was offered several multi-million dollar NFL contracts and decided to turn them down and join the army instead to fight the taliban after 9/11. When he was sent to iraq instead (where the taliban are not) he was hugely pissed and when they offered to let him quit the army and play football he said no that he had made a commitment and he would finish his tour of duty. He was later killed in a firefight. Atheists actually disproportionately contribute to society in virtually every field, they make up a larger percent of the military than the general population, as well as scientists, musicians, comedians, actors and artists in general. So if you think living a life without god would be self-obsessed and immoral I ask you to just get to know some people who do live life as if there is no god.

      14. I am sooooooo sorry, I am replying so late, but with all you said i think i can reply with this.

        You are completely right, there have been groups like the KKK and Hitler and many others that have done evil things in the name of Christianity, does that mean they were right? absolutely not, even an a smaller scale today scripture is taken out of context and or used to manipulate people. which is why knowing God for yourself because you know what He says and can discover what He meant. I have done it, and you know what i have been changed mentally, and i am very aware of the change, which is the biggest difference, to be brainwashed and not know it, versus, being willing to change your cognitive process and being aware and have the chance witness the transformation.

        And science is not my thing and on either side of the spectrum, but from what i do know, i do feel that both ideas are represented. and i am sure i have no adequate academic ground to debate that full aspect with you.

        and as a Christ follower, a person should not be judgmental in the ways that you mention and so condemning, that is furthest from teaching, now is it to say people were wrong, not necessarily, but there is a time, place, and way for everything, and that is the sad and unfortunate part, because under the name of Christ, people are mean, ignorant, judgmental, and unforgiving. the complete opposite of what we should be. that chance for a relationship is what sets Christianity apart from everything else, in addition to the fact that what happens when we die has nothing to do with the “good” we do here on earth or who we are or what we have, its all about what He did already for us.

        as for me, how i act and what i do, yes i do it because i know i have to give an account for what i have done, but i also do it out of love for my Father. Just like there are things i do or say, not do or not say to those i care for here because i love and respect them, the same with God. i have a relationship with him and because i love Him and He loves me, there are things i choose not to do or say, and do and say because i want to make Him smile.

        And the idea of Hell and eternal torture yeah, but the question is not “how can a loving God chose to send anyone to Hell?” but rather “how could anyone choose Hell over a loving God?”

        There are so many questions and many that I can’t answer. and i can tell you the sky is blue and that is the truth, but that doesn’t mean you will agree with me. all in all, i found the truth and everyday i try to learn go deeper. I can tell you 50,000 times about what God has done for me and how my relationship with me has been my saving grace in so many way, but you have to know it for yourself. You have to take the chance, i don’t know if you have, but read the Bible learn about who this God is that I wrote the article about. i almost dare you.

        I don’t have all the answers, but I know for a fact He does, and whatever you are seeking you will find it in Him. That is a promise.

      15. “I am sooooooo sorry, I am replying so late, but with all you said i think i can reply with this.”

        No worries, life happens.

        “You are completely right, there have been groups like the KKK and Hitler and many others that have done evil things in the name of Christianity, does that mean they were right? absolutely not, even an a smaller scale today scripture is taken out of context and or used to manipulate people. which is why knowing God for yourself because you know what He says and can discover what He meant.”

        The point is that different people do the same thing and reach radically different conclusions, leaving secular people with little to conclude but that people are, albeit in a complex psychological way, simply talking to themselves. Or some aspect of their psyche which they call god or the holy spirit, or in other cultures the voices of their ancestors or the spirit world etc, etc.

        “I have done it, and you know what i have been changed mentally, and i am very aware of the change, which is the biggest difference, to be brainwashed and not know it, versus, being willing to change your cognitive process and being aware and have the chance witness the transformation.”

        I am reminded of a talk Sam Harris gave on the nature of belief about how the belief itself causes the shift in our feelings, our worldview, etc, regardless of whether the belief is correct. He gave the following example – imagine you have a child and that child is in some war-torn part of the world. You get a phone call informing you that they have been kidnapped and may be killed. If you believe this then your whole world will be turned upside down, your life will be changed completely – but it will have this effect even if the information is not true or not accurate, based only on whether you believe it. Reincarnation or heaven or hell or the idea that god loves you etc, etc, can have profound effects on people even if they’re not real things. I’m sure many muslims have had profound personal experiences related to their faith, prayer, meditation, “signs” etc.

        “And science is not my thing and on either side of the spectrum, but from what i do know, i do feel that both ideas are represented. and i am sure i have no adequate academic ground to debate that full aspect with you.”

        I should hope then that you would be hesitant to hold a firm opinion on either side.

        “and as a Christ follower, a person should not be judgmental in the ways that you mention and so condemning, that is furthest from teaching, now is it to say people were wrong, not necessarily, but there is a time, place, and way for everything, and that is the sad and unfortunate part, because under the name of Christ, people are mean, ignorant, judgmental, and unforgiving. the complete opposite of what we should be. that chance for a relationship is what sets Christianity apart from everything else, in addition to the fact that what happens when we die has nothing to do with the “good” we do here on earth or who we are or what we have, its all about what He did already for us.”

        So everybody gets to go to heaven regardless of how they live their life?

        “as for me, how i act and what i do, yes i do it because i know i have to give an account for what i have done, but i also do it out of love for my Father. Just like there are things i do or say, not do or not say to those i care for here because i love and respect them, the same with God. i have a relationship with him and because i love Him and He loves me, there are things i choose not to do or say, and do and say because i want to make Him smile.”

        I am kind to another person out of love for that person.

        “And the idea of Hell and eternal torture yeah, but the question is not “how can a loving God chose to send anyone to Hell?” but rather “how could anyone choose Hell over a loving God?”

        This is just ignoring the question. And I know more know that your god is a real being to choose or not choose than I know vishnu is a real being, so I have no choice.

        “There are so many questions and many that I can’t answer. and i can tell you the sky is blue and that is the truth, but that doesn’t mean you will agree with me.”

        That is an objective truth which can be confirmed by anyone. That yahweh is the creator of the universe or that hell exists etc is not.

        “all in all, i found the truth and everyday i try to learn go deeper. I can tell you 50,000 times about what God has done for me and how my relationship with me has been my saving grace in so many way, but you have to know it for yourself.”

        I think that’s just how you interpret things based on certain assumptions. People “see” god at work in their lives because they just assume god is behind certain kinds of events. But that is like if I assumed demons cause violent behavior, I would “see” demons everywhere, I’d see them on the news and in hollywood movies and on the streets and I would see demons in a million youtube videos. But would I be actually seeing demons, or seeing mundane acts of violence through the lens of my assumptions? When people say things like “I’ve seen jesus heal people, my aunt was sick and blah blah blah” I am always tempted to say “you SAW jesus?! Really? How did he look? Did those scars from the cross heal? Is he really black like some people claim? Did you get a picture or an autograph? Did he speak english or have an accent?”

        Obviously though they didn’t actually see jesus do anything.

        “You have to take the chance, i don’t know if you have, but read the Bible learn about who this God is that I wrote the article about. i almost dare you.”

        Atheists on average know more about the bible than christians (and every other major religious group in the US):

        http://www.pewforum.org/2010/09/28/u-s-religious-knowledge-survey/

        I generally know more about the bible and theology than most christians I have talked to, including some members of the clergy. I also know many things which are unpopular but true, like that the cannon has been changed a lot, that books referred to in canonical books are not included in modern cannons, that the bible contains many contradictions, that the gospels are widely not considered by biblical scholars to be written by matthew, mark, luke and john as tradition suggests, nor are the first three books of the torah considered to have been written by moses, etc.

        “I don’t have all the answers, but I know for a fact He does, and whatever you are seeking you will find it in Him. That is a promise.”

        Don’t make promises you can’t keep. I appreciate the sentiment but I don’t agree with the conclusion. And again I am honestly sorry if this offends, it is not my intention.

      16. It’s a promise I can keep, and you don’t have to agree, in no way am I offended at anything thus far.

        But no, not everyone gets to heaven, my point was that whether a person does or not doesn’t depend on how they themselves lives.

        And yes, we can all look at the same thing and come up with totally different conclusions even on trivial matters, but even with God, everyone can draw their own conclusions but not everyone can be right, even logically it’s impossible.

        And how can a loving God send people to Hell, the simplest answer for now is his sovereignty.

        And no I am no expert, but i still have my convictions and I am still learning and studying, as we are mandated to do and at this point my mind hasn’t changed.

        And im not sure if I made it seem this way, but i absolutely believe in demons, evil spirits, and the supernatural, and those forces that are unseen and they are very real, alive, present, and active today some violent some more passive, some that affect a person mentally and others physically.

        and that sad part is that you are right, that atheist and other non-Christians know more than most Christians do, and i have my beliefs as to why, but that is irrelevant, and still that doesn’t make it right, there are a lot of discrepancies that have come up over the years, which i can understand even the ones you mentioned that could be refuted.

        and no one presently saw Jesus do anything, but you can say that about any other person from over 120 years and centuries back. even non-biblical writers of the same time recorded Jesus as a true person.

        and absolutely out beliefs determine our world view the difference is understanding why we believe what we do and make it applicable.

        you can be kind, a lot of people are kind out of love, but it goes back to the innate moral nature in us, which asks the question, where does it come from?? As a Christ-follower, I have a standard I strive to live up to.

      17. “But no, not everyone gets to heaven, my point was that whether a person does or not doesn’t depend on how they themselves lives.”

        Heaven and hell seem designed (probably by people) to be simple positive and negative reinforcement for good and against bad behavior. They’re a reflection of the human impulse to punish or shun bad behavior and to reward positive behavior. God always looks strikingly similar to us. We say we are made in his image but I suspect it is the other way around. At least from a christian perspective this must be true about all the other gods of other religions.

        “And yes, we can all look at the same thing and come up with totally different conclusions even on trivial matters, but even with God, everyone can draw their own conclusions but not everyone can be right, even logically it’s impossible.”

        So how is getting guidance from god different than just forming your own opinion and calling it god’s influence?

        “And how can a loving God send people to Hell, the simplest answer for now is his sovereignty.”

        I don’t accept that might makes right. If god is sovereign and that makes everything he does (or orders others to do) acceptable then if god tortured babies would that be okay? What if god appeared before you right now and told you to torture an infant to death? Would it be okay because “god is sovereign”? I strongly suspect that even if (or perhaps especially if) you thought god wanted you to do something like that you would find it deeply disturbing, and probably couldn’t bring yourself to do it. In that scenario I would rather go to hell for doing what is right than go to heaven for doing what is wrong. And I think any sane, non-psychotic god would have more respect for that than blind obedience.

        “And no I am no expert, but i still have my convictions and I am still learning and studying, as we are mandated to do and at this point my mind hasn’t changed.”

        I am not trying to change your mind, I just believe in questioning and I’d want other people to challenge my views so I do the same to theirs. I think it’s the only way to get at the truth. To never assume things or take them for granted, and question everything and try to learn as much as possible. Unfortunately organized religion historically has been more about controlling the illiterate masses than enabling them to think for themselves (which to be fair was impossible for most of history) so many people still recoil at having their beliefs challenged.

        “And im not sure if I made it seem this way, but i absolutely believe in demons, evil spirits, and the supernatural, and those forces that are unseen and they are very real, alive, present, and active today some violent some more passive, some that affect a person mentally and others physically.”

        I think the supernatural is just what we call things we don’t understand. Historically when we didn’t understand the weather or the changing of the seasons they were attributed to gods, titans and other mystical forces – even in the bible things like rain are attributed to direct acts of god because people back then didn’t understand evaporation, condensation, gravity and so on. Now we understand rain very well but we don’t understand the root causes of things like gravity that cause it so we say those are caused by god. When we understand those a hundred or a thousand years from now we will just point to some new thing and say that is god or the effect of god. Take illness for instance, when somebody is sick and suddenly gets better and leaves doctors scratching their heads as to why we say god cured them, it’s a miracle. But when we understand why they got better (ie we fixed something that was wrong like replacing a flat tire on a car) we don’t say it was a miracle. But not understanding what is going on doesn’t mean anything except that we don’t understand what’s going on. And we always do this in a lopsided way too because we don’t want god to be evil, so if someone gets sick and then gets better we say “see, it’s a miracle, god cured them, our prayers were heard!” but when the person gets sick and the doctors can’t figure out why nobody say “it’s a miracle, god’s out to get this person and made them sick!” We attribute supernatural cause and effect and justify it by how it makes us feel to believe there is a higher power at work and whether we know enough to know better (ie understand what’s going on).

        I have never found anything that we actually understand that could be said to be a demon or a spirit etc. It’s like airplane engineers that used to say (jokingly) that whenever they have a mechanical problem they can’t fix or figure out it was caused by gremlins. Or computer programmers saying when a software problem they can’t solve fixes itself that it’s the “ghost in the machine”. When in reality it’s just us personifying that which we do not understand.

        “and that sad part is that you are right, that atheist and other non-Christians know more than most Christians do, and i have my beliefs as to why, but that is irrelevant,”

        I’m curious as to why you think they/we do.

        “and no one presently saw Jesus do anything, but you can say that about any other person from over 120 years and centuries back.”

        You could if they were supposedly still alive and acting in the world.

        “even non-biblical writers of the same time recorded Jesus as a true person.”

        Not really. People born after jesus’ death recorded the claims circulating about him at the time.

        “and absolutely out beliefs determine our world view the difference is understanding why we believe what we do and make it applicable.”

        I agree. It’s very important to think about why we believe things.

        “you can be kind, a lot of people are kind out of love, but it goes back to the innate moral nature in us, which asks the question, where does it come from??”

        The same place the nasty parts of human nature come from – a combination of genetics and learned conditioning. Our core ethical behavior is not much different from that of a rat or a dog, though it’s modified by our thoughts, beliefs, philosophies, culture etc because we have higher brain functions. But even what we consider the lowliest animals like a rat will help another rat if it’s in trouble and protect their young even at their own risk etc. The biological explanation for this is that behavior genes vary (which is why human behavior varies so much) and that the behaviors that were useful stuck around because those genes survived, while the behaviors that were harmful (like insanity) generally got weeded out because they made the individuals that possessed them less likely to survive and pass on their genes, so over many generations some genes will become more common and others less common. This is also why people are horny, their ancestors that weren’t really interested in sex or relationships tended not to have children, while the ones that strongly wanted to couple up and cared about their kids tended to have kids which also tended to survive long enough to have kids of their own.

        “As a Christ-follower, I have a standard I strive to live up to.”

        As a nerd I’ve looked into human behavior and morality and different worldviews and come to the conclusion that morality is far bigger than this or that religion or philosophy. It pre-dates even our species, let alone civilization or any particular text.

        You read a passage about loving your neighbor and gravitate toward it because you’re a nice person and understand the value of the sentiment. You would gravitate toward it whether it was in the koran or being said by some guy on the street for the same reason. Yes the golden rule is part of being christian, but more profoundly it’s a part of being human and even a part of being a mammal. One of the beautiful things about modern science is that it gives us a sense of the grandeur of these things, and while some people find concepts like deep time or vast cosmic perspectives disturbing, I think the fact that my roots and the roots of human anatomy and behavior go back billions of years is humbling and profound and beautiful.

        Btw if I’m more ranty than normal it’s because I’ve had a rare two cups of coffee.

      18. No that is not true with other religions, which is the beauty of it, every part of who we are reflects Him, enabling us to connect.

        and I can tell when “guidance” is from me or from God. I won’t lie at times it can be difficult to discern, but when you know you know. bottom line is that it comes down to the relationship you have with Him.

        as far as sovereignty, let me back up. Hell was not originally creates for people, it was created for Satan and his demons. but the sin, if i may, changed all that. further more, God provided an escape an escape so great, yet simple, that i can understand in part the consequence of not coming to Him.

        I personally am enjoying this dialogue, idk about you, and i know you are trying to change my views, but as you said just challenging them, bc as we said a few times before no one living can tell us what happened 200 years ago, let alone at the beginning of it all. there was no IG, vine, or Fb lol. thus, people flocked to one belief or the other, even apart from religion, for lack of a better term, but one day, we will find out for sure. but i honestly do believe that my faith is truth, though i may not understand or can interpret all that is involved, i keep learning and growing so that i can give an answer when asked as you have.

        well in my opinion, you can have one without the other, if you believe in God you have to believe in His enemy, Satan. now i completely agree that people tend to associate good with God and bad with Satan. on the surface level that is true, but as you said and i do agree, every “bad” thing is not attributed to Satan and every “good” thing (i use those terms very loosely) is attributed to God. but still i personally have experience miracles as we as demonic activity. it wasnt as blatant as a horror flick lol but i couldnt deny it. i mean just for me, to think of how crazily evil or far gone some people are, there has to be something else lurking, and that doesn’t even include witches or voodoo.

        Atheist and non-christians i think have a greater desire to know whats truth, because they dont believe in the Bible they use as many other resources, including Scripture, to prove or disprove the faith. Also, for a lot of Christians, its the same thing, but the Bible is there they go no further, but if they truly read it, it tells us to study and learn to prove the Bible and its teaching true. then again others are just lazy and think they have done enough to get to Heaven, and thats all that matters, i think atheist and non-christians have a stronger desire for truth and reason than many christians
        so they are constantly searching for answers. in a nut shell lol.

        im pretty certain there were other writers, but ill double check my sources ☺

        i can’t agree though that it is nature and nurture alone, i mean yes both of them have their places in moral and ever other level of developement, but again, if one believes in evolution that knocks that theory out the window. i think anyway. plus there has to be a higher law because not everyone believes the the same things to necessarily be right or wrong. now dont get me wrong, even the Bible says that there are innate moralistic things in us, but it also points us to where the convictions come from.

        I get what you are saying, and i don’t want you to get the impression that i think there is no level of “truth” in any other religions, because its be dumb of me to deny similarities in values and principles. but as far as the standard i strive toward, it’s more than just about a happy feeling, or self-satisfaction, it goes so much deeper than that, which is what separates Christianity from any other belief system and is what humbles me and i find profound and beautiful.

        hahaha no you are rambling about the same lol, but no worries, im still listening ☺

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